Response to my exorcism page regarding fallen angels crossing back over to become good angels. Keep in mind I am not an official preacher. I love Yahshua and try to serve Him any way I can and I certainly don't know all there is to know about the Bible or spiritual warfare. I go where my heart says to go and do what I
feel the holy spirit working inside of me wants me to do. This man's points are well taken. The honest answer is I don't know. The one book we studied said she did this many times; converting bad angels to good angels after she made them go seek Yahweh and ask for forgiveness. Bob Larson never addresses this. We still listen to his cd's on our trips back and forth to the states. The priest who let me into his deliverance forum stated they HAD done this, and not just once,  but they never talk about it as people simply would not believe it and it would give them great credibility problems. But he said our God is a forgiving God and to not write off what God is willing to do in special circumstances. He said, like Larry below states, that angels can be treated differently than created beings. I asked Hiry, the replacement fallen angel the following day, where Rushta, the gatekeeper was, from the previous day.  He stated Rushta was standing behind me as my protective angel just as God had instructed him to be for the rest of my life the day before. He also stated there were many more angels with him on this day.   And I have thought about it many times that maybe I now have a demon as my protective angel.  But in the ensuing 9 months, only good things have happened. Our workload has increased. Yahweh brings more money to work with as well as increasing the burden of where it has to go. Our protection still seems to be in tact. Of the many things that have happened I would have to say someone is still watching over us. Rushta?? A different guardian angel?? I did buy a book on communicating with my guardian angel but never got around to reading it yet. Maybe I don't want to know.

From Larry Goertzen, April 2nd, 2008
Hi Ber,

To refresh your memory, I sent you the Set Free Manual to aid you in dealing with Angelica, the demonized woman. 

I have been pondering some of the exorcism guidelines on your site derived from your experience in this  exorcism for a number of months.  I am writing to express my concern for one of your stated positions especially in view of your influence.  Please read and weigh this prayerfully even if you sense spiritual opposition.

After careful thought and consideration of the Scriptures, I have come to the conclusions that it is highly unlikely that fallen angels have the opportunity of redemption.  My reasons are as follows:

1.   God is impartial.  “For there is no partiality with God.”  Rom 2:11   (NAU). 

At first this may seem like an argument against my statement.  However, please consider this Scripture:  “For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; … 9 {then} the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment…”  2 Pet 2:4 and 9 (NAU).  This indicates that at least some fallen angels do not have the opportunity for redemption.  Therefore, if God offers redemption to some fallen angels and not to others, He would be acting partially.  (I will explain below why offering salvation to humans and not to angels is not impartial.)

2.      God judges some more severely than others.  It is a principle of Scripture that God judges beings He has created based on the light that they have received.  Therefore some incur stricter judgment than others.  “Let not many {of you} become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.”  James 3:1 (NAU).  Angels that once served in the throne room of heaven and sinned willfully (rebelliously) knowing exactly what they were doing without being deceived (since they were in the very presence of God), are in a different category than beings who were deceived by another (humans by the serpent).

This even follows with Israel .  They received commandments directly from God “face to face” at Mount Sinai and then sinned by worshiping the golden calf.  God said to Moses in Exod 32:33-34 “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.  But go now, lead the people where I told you, … nevertheless in the day when I punish, I will punish them for their sin."  (NAU)  Here God alludes to a day in the future (“in the day when I punish”) when Israel will be judged for violating commands that came directly from the mouth of God in a “face to face” meeting.  

We see “this day” alluded to in other books of the Bible as well.  "Hear and testify against the house of Jacob," declares the Lord GOD, the God of hosts.  "For on the day that I punish Israel 's transgressions, I will also punish the altars of Bethel .” Amos 3:13 ,14 (NAU).  Finally, and most clearly, "As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "surely with a mighty hand and with an outstretched arm and with wrath poured out, I shall be king over you.  I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you from the lands where you are scattered, with a mighty hand and with an outstretched arm and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will enter into judgment with you face to face.  As I entered into judgment with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt , so I will enter into judgment with you," declares the Lord GOD.  "I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; and I will purge from you the rebels and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the land where they sojourn, but they will not enter the land of Israel . Thus you will know that I am the LORD.”  Ezek 20:33-38 (NAU).

This is apparently the most severe judgment that “believing” humanity will receive.  The rest of us “believers” will have received redemption in Christ and will be judged “for the deeds done in the body” but without the possibility of losing salvation because we are “in Christ.”   We see from this that violation of commandments that are received face to face from God are treated more seriously than commandments that come “second hand,” like in the Bible.

This also explains why Moses could make one angry mistake, “striking the rock” instead of “speaking to the rock” and be barred from entering the Promised Land as a result.  “You broke faith with Me in the midst of the sons of Israel at the waters of Meribah-kadesh, in the wilderness of Zin, because you did not treat Me as holy in the midst of the sons of Israel .  For you shall see the land at a distance, but you shall not go there, into the land which I am giving the sons of Israel ."  Deut 32:51-52  (NAU)

He had spoken with God face to face (“Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend.” Exod 33:11 (NAU) and so was judged more severely than Caleb, Joshua and the children of Israel who were under 20.   “None of the men who came up from Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I swore to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob; for they did not follow Me fully, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite and Joshua the son of Nun, for they have followed the LORD fully.'”  Num 32:11-12  (NAU)  And we see that Moses did not die of old age but rather God took his life because of one sin.  “Although Moses was one hundred and twenty years old when he died, his eye was not dim, nor his vigor abated.” Deut 34:7 (NAU) “So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab , according to the word of the LORD.  And He [God] buried him in the valley in the land of Moab , opposite Beth-peor; but no man knows his burial place to this day.”  Deut 34:5-6 (NAU) 

For the principle to follow through, angels who sinned will be judged more severely than people who sin because angels too have seen God face to face.

3.      The Scripture gives no indication that Salvation was made available to angels.  God does not have the option because of His holiness of simply allowing a “bad being” to “cross over” and become “a good being” without provision being made.  Our provision is Jesus Christ.  “Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.  For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.  Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.”  Heb 2:14-17  (NAU); and, “according to the Law, {one may} almost {say} all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”  Heb 9:22 (NAU).  "For this reason {it is} by faith, in order that {it may be} in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all." Rom 4:16  (NAU)

These verses indicate that Jesus had to become like us in order to redeem us; He had to have flesh and blood like us to qualify as our Saviour.  Angel “blood” is not like ours, if indeed they have any.  They are of a different order of being and we are given no indication in Scripture that a way of redemption has been provided for them.  Jesus Himself does not qualify to be the angel Redeemer since He is now, and always has been, a different order of being.  He took the "form of man" not "the form or angels."  “For to which of the angels did He ever say, "You are my Son….”  And again, "I will be a Father to Him and He shall be a Son to Me.”  Heb 1:5 (NAU).  We have been adopted (in Christ) so we can also call God, “Father.”  “For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"”  Rom 8:15 (NAU).  The writer to the Hebrews draws the final distinction at the end of chapter one, “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?”  Heb 1:14 (NAU).  Here the distinction is clear:  they (good angels) minister to those who will inherit salvation.  If fallen angels could “inherit salvation”, angels would be ministering to other angels, and that, Scripturally speaking, is not what they were made to do.  Angels who fell, lost the privilege of ministry and, Scripture gives no indication that it can be recovered because there is no one available (from the knowledge we have received) to make “propitiation for the sins of the [angels].”  In fact, the Scriptures indicate the exact opposite, “Assuredly, He [God] does not give help to angels.”

4.      I don’t see in your documentation sufficient evidence that Rushta had to pass Scriptural testing.  There are at least two tests for identifying error in this type of “spiritual” situation.  I would not even consider the possibility of allowing for redemption of demons without the demon voluntarily, passionately, saying these statements.  However, they are not final proof.  They often serve as qualifiers.

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that … no one can say, "Jesus is [my] Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.  (NAU). 

I Jn 4:2  By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.  (NAU)

Care must be taken in administering these; it should not be done by a novice.  I know of at least one instance where the demon said, “Jesus Christ has come” and then released the person’s vocal chords so they could say, “in the flesh.”  A demonized person can usually not repeat this phrase without difficulty and demons 99% of the time cannot say the whole thing.  I am aware of one situation where a demon speaking through a person by all indications said the phrases convincingly (as a “proof” of the person’s freedom) but the person was still demonized.  We have to tread carefully and be constantly relying on the Holy Spirit because we are finite beings and we are dealing with skilled liars.

5.      There are some situations in life where we may perhaps be right (I cannot guarantee beyond all doubt that angels cannot be redeemed because my knowledge is limited) but proof is strongly lacking and I believe a careful examination of Scripture indicates that it is, at least, highly unlikely.  In situations like this, Paul exhorts us to make it our practice “not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.” 1 Cor 4:6  (NAU); because “Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies.” 1 Cor 8:1.

In this section, I wish to say, that even if perchance you are correct, that the consequences of potentially being wrong are so great that it is best to keep silent on the matter and leave the sorting out to God who is omniscient.  Let’s assume for a moment that you are mistaken (even if, as I said, there is a remote possibility that you are not).  If Rushta has succeeded in convincing you that he is an angel of light while, in fact, he is not (“No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.” 2 Cor 11:14   NAU), then you have actually allowed a “spirit guide” into your life who is posing as an angel.  Not only that, but your wide influence is now instructing others who may do exorcisms to give other fallen angels the same opportunity.  And what happens if a person has never done an exorcism before and is following your guidance and does not know how to check as carefully as you might?  Consider that the person who is following your guidelines might have knowledge comparable to yours when you began and might be alone.  Even if you are convinced that Rushta is now “good,” your guidance has the potential of attaching others to a “spirit guide” posing as an angel.  What kind of a potential coup is that?  And worse, if repeated multiple times over.  Furthermore, the Scriptures say that “When he [Satan] lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” (NIV) and “Can two walk together, except they be agreed?” Amos 3:3 (KJV).  From these Scriptures we know that Rushta, for certain was previously a confirmed liar who has now told you that he has reformed and is telling the truth.  If you had an acquaintance who you knew was a confirmed liar and had the witness of Scripture to that effect, would you start to believe him if he told you he was now going to tell the truth (when he has lied for at least hundreds of years) and, furthermore, tell your friends to believe his previous “comrades?”  The potential danger is huge.

So I appeal to you, please remove all references “to demons crossing over to become good angels” from your site and let God sort this out for “Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?” (Gen 18:25).  This will not limit your ability to set human captives free.  If you do not wish to comply with my request, please post my points as a caution to your position so at least people can weigh the options.  There is no need to include my name unless you want to.

Ber, I read through the sessions you sent me and it is obvious that you have progressed significantly from when you started.  I bless you for your perseverance.  Larson is a good reference for dealing with the demonic though our team does not follow his model.  We have been working together for about 15 years and can usually determine the demon/s’ name/s’, etc. by Word of Knowledge from the Holy Spirit.  That way we do not have to converse with the demons at all other than issuing commands.  We function this way, because from our experience, they are all liars so allowing them to speak only brings confusion.

Some other books you may wish to consider are:  1) The most comprehensive work (626 pages) on spiritual warfare that I know (is broader than just exorcisms) – “Handbook for Spiritual Warfare” by Dr. Ed Murphy.  2)  A balancing book – “Needless Casualties of War” by John Paul Jackson.  

Now on to a short, second matter.  You have different opportunities available on your site.  I have come across one you may wish to consider investigating.  If you do not wish to, that is fine with me.  I would like to send you some information on a new MLM Canadian company which has just started launching world-wide after about two years of establishing its foundation and structure.  It is a unique concept in that is has a trademarked compensation plan that allows anyone and everyone to benefit, from the individual who just wants to be able to buy wholesale, to the one who wants to retail in any format they choose, to the astute business person who wants to grow a great business.  The investment can be as little as $138.00 US and for a limited time during the British Columbia, Canada pre-launch the company is offering us the opportunity to give the best program at less than half price.  The friend that introduced us made back his investment at the top level in two weeks.

I would be most appreciative of your feedback on the program and so would like your permission to send you a summary and the website.  I value your opinion since you are much more well-versed in the “opportunity area” than I am and hope that you will be able to respond.

Blessings in your sphere of influence,

Larry Goertzen

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